gym debate

[Aurora]

Good discussion guys. Your right Chris, in my head I had this visual of ego training with shorter ROM totally. My bad to make assumptions. I do agree that there is no one sized fits all system of training, that each program really needs to be individualized, and there is a place for everything, including shorter rom. I just dont think it should by any means be the whole focus.

I also agree that ego training with Higher ROM is even MORE dangerous.

I have this book on stretching that I need to dust off, I nearly memorized it years ago when I was a martial arts instructor, but I admit I have since forgotten all the details but only retained the concepts. In there, I could have sworn it went over the whole biomechanics of the nervous system "memory" involved in stretching. meaning, while exercising will increase flexibility from nothing if thats what you started with, training the shorter movements over time will be ultimately restricting its potential.

Im studying for my nutrition and wellness certification exam right now so my mind is totally on other things, but I will dig up that book when I have time to validate my thoughts on that, its called stretching scientifically if anyone wants to read it, I remember really enjoying it.

[mutaciq]

Great topic, lots of info, thanks for sharing:).

[chrismortimer66]

You have a good point Aurora, thier are many assholes out thier who choose to lift half and quarter, thinking that makes them strong, i.e. seated shoulder pressing 150lb dumbells to ear level. I feel very defensive in my gym, because I train very differently [stretch bands, blocks of wood, plyometerics etc] which attracts critism from know it all idiots, any they often critise my half n quarter rep training.
I think the main difference from me and Ego lifters is, I feel like a pretender when I am lifting half and quarter, its not until I graduate onto lifting full rom with the weight that I feel happy, where as EGO lifters lift half and quarter and have no inclination to achieve full rom, thier happy showing of to the guys in the gym and thats enough for them.
Alot of westside barbell techniques are about using quarter and half rep weight and trying to develope a full rom with that same weight, i.e. board presses, starting with a weight you can bench of 4 inch thick boards, then every couple of weeks taking a board of and see how you develope.
As far as stretching goals, stretching should always be encouraged after lifting, regardless of how one traines or what the goal is, as flexibility is a quality that helps all through life, and can help muscle and strength development in the long run.
Good luck with the nutrition certificate!

[J-Range Training]

You hit the nail on the head Aurora when you said that everybody is different. The truth is that one size doesn't fit all, so a range that works for one won't work for another. The problem in the past is that science could never explain this.

I have to disagree with you Chris that the ultimate goal should be to lift through a full range of motion, as the muscles we use primarily as movers in the gym (Type II) are not designed to lift in the full range. Before someone criticizes, have someone you know do this experiment: Tell them to pick up a pencil from a chair and curl it all the way up. After you watch them do that, instruct them to pick up a 35 pound dumbbell from the chair and curl it up all the way.

Notice that there will be a difference between the two. They will always pick up the pencil straight armed. Then they will do one of two things with the heavier weight. They will either significantly bend the arm in preparation to lift the weight, or they will pick it up straight armed, then realize they can't lift it like that, and will quickly use momentum while shifting their leverage into a position that the muscles can actually take over.

That's an example that our subconscious already knows that we shouldn't use full range of joint motion for a lift with a Type II fiber, so why teach it? All exercises other than pressing motions are actually more difficult when someone doesn't use a full range of motion, since the motion would keep them in a biomechanical disadvantage the entire time.

The key is to find each person's unique range of motion. The tough part is that it can change within the individual based on physiological changes. If someone works within their muscles range, there is never any need to go out of that. Anything other than what their muscle is designed to do would overload the synergists leading to synergistic dominance. These muscle imbalances lead to postural distortions, and finally injury.

[chrismortimer66]

The muscles may not be designed to lift throug a full range, but as far as physical development[bodybuilding] or strength training, then excercising through a full range is needed.
Also you example of pickin up a pencil only works on a week person, you ask me to pick a pencil and a 30lbs dumbell straght after, you will see the same movement.

"That's an example that our subconscious already knows that we shouldn't use full range of joint motion for a lift with a Type II fiber, so why teach it?"
The body finds the easiest way to lift things, that doesn't mean its always the best i.e. picking up heavy boxes, so many people hurt themselves picking up heavy stuff, but they pick it the way thier body tells them.

You overcome biomechanical disadvantages by getting stronger, you do this by FORCING the body to ADAPT, to heavier weight by whatever strategy you wish, i.e. slow reps, fast reps, pre-exhaust, forced reps, half and quarter reps, negatives etc, in conjunction with strict form movements.

You will always hit a wall when training any range of movement, then its time to change the anount of rom your using.

Postural distortions will only occur if undertraining or overtraining of certain core muscles occurs.

The main point is your body doesn't to get strong and grow muscle, but you have to force it to. People who train with thier egos with half reps and cheat movents all the time, are allowing thier instinct to make it easier on themselves to dominate.
Injuries will be more likely to occur in these individuals as they wll have significant week links in thier muscles, which could prove to be hazardess in the gym or in real world situations, where they make choose to take on physical task, and because of thier type of training they have developed a false sense of thier strength ability and end up hurt or worse.

[J-Range Training]

Wow, so many misnomers Chris. I regret to say that I don't have time now, but I will reply. No one should be so quick to jump to a conclusion. I am fully aware that my field has, and that usually leads to the utter mess of misinformation that is out there today.

[Aurora]

If you cant curl a dumbell with a straight arm then you are going too heavy. From my perspective alot of the muscle imbalances and injuries occur from "bad information" where people think that "heavy" or "intensity" is a number on a bar. With lever joints I totally think full range is necissary. But its interesting using the example of the bicep curl, how missinformed people are as to what exactly is full range. Full range is not touching your shoulders. It should be physically impossible to do that. A curl at its peak is actually very close to a 90 degree angle with total isolation, and not moving the shoulders.

[Aurora]

Originally Posted by chrismortimer66

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Postural distortions will only occur if undertraining or overtraining of certain core muscles occurs.

Iver revecently learned that most posture problems are the result of over training (and undertraining usually with opposing muscle groups) within the hip area. By training I dont always mean weightlifting either, but rather repetitive tasks at work or from a fall of some kind.

[chrismortimer66]

I get your point Aurora, maybe I am wrong but I include the hip flexors as well as abs and erector spinae as core muscles. In most of my experiences with of people with posture problems, its been atrophied lower back and trapezius muscles thats been the cause.
After rectifying this with simple excerises like SLD's and shrugs with light weight they usualy have no problem. I have helped bout 12 differen't people with these specific exercises, strangley all tall females 5'10+, some of which had back issues caused by thier height but some had very large breasts which created a very bad posture which created al lot of lower back issues. So maybe thats scewerd my view on posture issues, as I have not had the chance to help any males.

[Aurora]

Well its all relative. But if you look at someone standing, and if one shoulder is higher, or their feet do not point straight, usually some hip adjustments work really well. Its advantageous to network with a good chiropractor.

Check out this guy: Egoscue Posture Solutions DVD Software